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 OSTARA
INTERVIEW
Rik conducted a live interview with Richard Leviathan of Ostara
over a few ales in an historic London pub on 23 January 2002.
KINGDOM GONE
FluxEuropa: The title track of your latest album, Kingdom Gone,
refers to the events of September 11th, which was quite a brave thing
to do at this early stage...
Richard Leviathan: That track evolved essentially from an experimental
piece which a friend of mine had submitted to me, to which I was going
to add some spoken word. I had started actually looking at suicide bombing
in Palestine: this strange combination of religion, tradition and violence,
and then September 11th happened and I decided to add text to the piece,
and also to resurrect a part of something I did with Douglas Pierce on
Kapo. So an excerpt from there found its way into the text. I wasn't
trying to be topical deliberately. It was just something on everybody's
mind when we were recording.
FluxEuropa: Do you think that the events of September 11th
really have changed the world significantly?
Richard Leviathan: I think it was Baudrillard, the French philosopher,
who said that the impact of September 11th was highly symbolic as well
as being real. It was a media event. It was something that could not exist
without being symbolised, and turned into a form of horrific entertainment.
I remember on CNN at the time there were endless repetitions of this sequence
of crashes into the buildings, largely of the Twin Towers which had great
impact because of what they stand for, and their almost obscene grandeur.
And then at one stage they put music to it. It was almost like they were
creating a music video out of this horrific event, turning it into entertainment:
the ultimate display of media culture.
FluxEuropa: Do you think America has the cultural coherence to continue
to defend itself, or do you think that its response was that the last
spasm of a hollowed out culture?
Richard Leviathan: What they've got behind them is technological expertise
and economic power. It's a very accomplished nation: it produces very
articulate minds: very intelligent people. In essence there is something
lacking to some degree, a product not purely of Americans or America itself
but a kind of cultural malaise we're all going through presently: we can
all see a negativity in the spirit of modern times. It has a quickening
effect, an inspirational effect upon thinking and upon art to some degree,
but in the mainstream, in its totality, it has a leaden effect. Islam
is going through it as well and we could almost say that in those suicide
attacks, it is Islam itself that is dying!
FluxEuropa: Is this sickness terminal? Are we living at the
fag end of Western civilization?
Richard Leviathan: It's almost like we wanted to cultivate that myth,
as if it's attractive to pursue that. It's as if the phosphorescent glow
of decay is almost something attractive. The repulsive becomes attractive
in some way. What is horrific is interesting, so we're actually contributing
to this decline. We're not only witnessing it but knowingly or willingly
cultivating it. And I think it's highly ambivalent. Out of malaise, out
of negativity, some significant things can come. They might be totally
fragmented, idiosyncratic or peculiar. But it's a question of how we evaluate
decline in comparison to when there was an acme, and at what point was
there a high point in Western Civilization? Was it the Renaissance, was
it Eighteenth Century Baroque? If we analysed civilisations quite carefully
we'd find that the forces of creativity and genius always existed side-by-side
with some sense of decay and degeneration. Perhaps the latter is more
pronounced in our period because there's less control. There's less of
an elite, an aristocracy presiding over things. There's less of a Weltanschauung,
a guiding principle that's keeping things together.
ARISTOCRACY, HIGH AND LOW CULTURE
FluxEuropa: The concept of aristocracy seems to be a leitmotiv
in your thinking. Do you interpret this concept in a literal sense or
is it an aristocracy of the spirit, a concept of self-overcoming?
Richard Leviathan: I think in the present world that the latter is the
most meaningful. Aristocracy as the concept of a landed class is mostly
in decline. For the most part it's totally uninteresting. The House of
Lords, for example, is hardly inspiring. I would say that an aristocracy
of the spirit is probably one of the most important [things] but how we
define that is very difficult. You can view it philosophically and try
to cultivate it as an ideal, but on the ground, in the real world, it's
difficult to conceive of. It's something that we're almost impelled to
cultivate given that a lot of the common denominators of mainstream culture,
what is considered to be popular often clashes with our own sense of truth,
so we need to cultivate something positive, and so we aim to cultivate
something higher, which has always belonged to a minority, and while that
can lead to a lot of conceit, it's still a principle worth pursuing as
long as we continuously renew it and as long as it's not a form of arrogance.
FluxEuropa: What's your attitude towards popular culture and
how do you see the relationship with what some people would still define
as high culture and contrast with demotic culture, or do you take a postmodern
position whereby you can't really make that sort of distinction?
Richard Leviathan: I think there is some capacity for perhaps an exceptional
inter-relationship between what you can say are popular forms and elements
of high culture. I think it's quite possible to write a song that has
elements in it - a melody or a tune - which is accessible and at the same
time has an esoteric, more obscure side. It's something I've been quite
interested in and which has to some extent found its way subconsciously
into Ostara. I don't mean that I'm deliberately trying to write pop songs,
but songs which have some degree of accessibility which makes me think
that it's quite feasible to do this, to utilise certain elements of pop
culture to perhaps have a shadow project. It's almost like an expropriation.
But again one doesn't want to be too conceited in thinking that you are
on the side of high culture as opposed to popular culture, because what
is popular does have a magnetism and perhaps a simplicity which is meaningful
and significant. And although the concept of the pop icon, the pop star,
is very degraded in the current climate, the iconography behind it still
has powerful magnetism.
OSTARA'S MUSIC
FluxEuropa: Some particular Ostara tracks have a very pop quality
and potential, although they do seem to reflect the era of groups like
Depeche Mode, OMD, Ultravox and so on rather than current tastes...
Richard Leviathan: Having grown up in the 80s and that era of music,
it's made an impression. And Timothy as well, he grew up in the era of
Joy Division, Bauhaus, and to some extent New Order. This has rubbed off
to some degree. The music of youth, probably from the age of ten onwards,
will always determine what you listen to and do in the future. And so
we are children of that era and, therefore, to some degree we're not totally
in tune with the current climate of pop music which in many ways is highly
fragmented, but at the same time become so stereotyped by corporate music
through which the creative edge of music is blunted.
FluxEuropa: You referred earlier to a certain esoteric or deliberately
obscure element in your approach. I detect in your music almost a ritual
approach to creating something which hints very strongly at a definite
meaning but which is rather elusive when you actually come to analyze
it.
Richard Leviathan: That's because the meaning is at times elusive even
to ourselves. The process of writing does have a magical quality. It's
a form of divination to the extent that you'll aim to write about something
in a particular way and then you'll read certain things into the lyrics
that will display something that wasn't there before. And that's the sort
of interactivity which the listener will also share, and demonstrates
that you are never operating in a vacuum. You are never the absolutely
conscious author of a piece of work. That gives it a certain esoteric
quality, and then at the same time, if your orientation is generally that
way anyway, the obscurity is going to be increased. And if you are deliberately
pursuing themes that are quite hidden or quite symbolic, then it's going
to deepen that tendency.
FluxEuropa: Your work reminds me of T S Eliot with regard to
his modernist approach of presenting fragments of a conversation...
Richard Leviathan: I was actually reading 'Ash Wednesday' today. Fragmentation
has been happening in literature for quite some time from 'stream of consciousness'
to the poetry of Hölderlin where, prior to his madness, he saught
to convey wisdom in fragments. He couldn't actually communicate in an
organic whole but only in a splintered form. It's almost like the hammer
hitting the anvil and in the sparks come the true meaning...
FluxEuropa: Turning more specifically to the music now, I understand
that your method of composition is essentially melody led...
Richard Leviathan: It varies and we have used quite a few electronic
pieces on Kingdom Gone. So there again there's a different dimension
where you're creating something in a highly technical mode from essentially
a PC. Tim's done most of that and certainly utilised what may be seen
as a rather obsessive interest in Japan and the use of Kamikaze images
which we thought were quite appropriate in the current climate. There's
all sorts of ways in which music gets created. Chant plays a role.
FluxEuropa: You have quite a full sound to your music: what
instruments do you actually play?
Richard Leviathan: We play essentially guitars, acoustic and electric,
we would compose the vast majority of the strings. Then we will introduce
musicians - percussion mainly, but then again we sometimes do our own
percussion as well. It depends on the song. You can get a song which involves
three or four people, or a song like 'Transsylvania' which was done entirely
individually. Everything was done by myself in that case. Occasionally
we'll use a sequencer but that's an exception rather than the rule. When
you've got a bad situation with sound you can't possibly rely on pre-recorded
elements, but I also like a stripped-down raw performance, where preprogramming
is complimentary but certainly can't dictate.
OSTARA - OPERATION
FluxEuropa: Does Timothy still live in Germany?
Richard Leviathan: He's now actually in Ireland although he spends time
between Germany and Ireland. He has commitments in both places. His homeland
is Ireland and that's where he feels most at home.
FluxEuropa: How often do you manage to get together?
Richard Leviathan: Very rarely. We get together when we need to rehearse
and when we need to record. Apart from the odd collaboration, a song is
usually individually composed. We'll bring it into the studio but we're
usually only together for the last stages. It's almost like two solo artists
who've brought their stuff together. Fortunately we don't clash too much
in terms of ideas or style.
FluxEuropa: Is there an obvious way of distinguishing between your
respective contributions?
Richard Leviathan: If you hear Tim singing you know it's his composition.
Also, all the electronic stuff, he's composed and I've added some lyrical
elements to it. He's been quite innovative on the IT side of music. Not
only is it a very economic way to record, but it's very contemporary.
While I wouldn't do an entire album of electronics, unless it was a theme
album, it's nice to draw those elements in. They just provide a complete
contrast to what else is there.
FluxEuropa: You've left World Serpent and your latest material has
been released on Eis & Licht. Do you have plans to continue with Eis
& Licht?
Richard Leviathan: Kingdom Gone will be released by Eis &
Licht. They've been very efficient and dedicated so far, with the vinyl
release, Whispers to the Soul. We've known Stephan for years and
always had an inkling we would be working together in some way because
we always felt an affinity with him. We needed a change. The fact that
Tim was in Germany and relatively fluent in German made it a possibility.
There were other contributing factors such as the departure of Death in
June because we've worked with Douglas for so long.
PHILOSOPHY
FluxEuropa: How did you become introduced to Evola?
Richard Leviathan: His name came about through people I knew in the neofolk
scene. He certainly is a paragon in this scene, particularly in his contrasting
of the modern and traditional worlds. Michael Moynihan is actually editing
his work now - it's being translated into English largely for the first
time. Books like Revolt Against the Modern World have been I circulation
for a while but others are just being translated - a new discovery for
the English-speaking world. I don't tend to see him as a lyrical inspiration
because I don't directly borrow from him textually but he's sort of in
the background. He's becoming a giant with regard to how we perceive reality,
and the idea of a connection with the past which may have become so obscure
and dim but is still there fundamentally, particularly in the Eurocentric
way of thinking and the desire to rediscover and renew and reaffirm the
roots of our civilization.
FluxEuropa: I believe you're also quite interested in Heidegger
but I haven't noticed Nietzsche featuring very much...
Richard Leviathan: He's so omnipresent that he's there regardless of
whether you mention him or not. I started reading him at the age of 17.
Never understood him then but rediscovered him later and realised the
impact of his thought. Again, a gigantic figure crossing between the nineteenth
and twentieth centuries. He was in the twilight and his disillusion at
the end of it was very much a part of that and his predictions about modern
reality and the way his thought was largely expropriated and misunderstood
to some degree. Yet at the same time it lends itself to certain destructive
applications which again makes him a giant figure, a dangerous figure,
but one who was a real colossus in terms of European thinking.
FluxEuropa: Many people would point to the Nazi phenomenon as a product
of the danger in Nietzschean thinking. That era strikes me as a sort of
intoxication: how do you view it?
Richard Leviathan: I think that nobody can avoid considering that whole
epoch in European history as a kind of dark consummation, a highly destructive
going into the abyss, and yet an attempt at some kind of reawakening,
revival, some kind of renewal...with perverse consequences and again that
mixture of elements makes it all so highly intriguing and, of course,
disturbing.
FluxEuropa: You've expressed an interest in Von Stauffenberg and his
mentor, Stefan Georg. What do you consider to be Georg's significance?
Richard Leviathan: Georg cultivated this idea of a spiritual elite and
he drew these young men around him. It was often described as almost a
homo-erotic relationship but it was at the same time a very aesthetic
one. There is no evidence that anything physical took place but there
was a bonding of youthful disciples with the master so it had this occult
ambience to it - his attempt to create a court almost in the heights,
almost literally in the mountains, and this sense of obligation, of duty
to the master and his ideas.
Von Stauffenberg was part of that circle and it made a great impression
on him. He came from an aristocratic family but was a bit of a bohemian.
And then being highly involved with this poet makes him an extremely intriguing
figure.
His actions in 1944 - noble in terms of conscience - weren't just a reaction.
They had a positive, affirmative side. This came from his experience with
Georg and he carried this idea of a secret Germany with him right to the
end. He did remain theoretically loyal to the regime until the time he
conspired, so he was part of that whole era. He was moving with it. He
was a patriot and I think his last act of defiance and attempted assassination
was heroic and patriotic just as it was treacherous.
FluxEuropa: I've noticed in your lyrics a couple of references to
"marble cliffs" and I'm wondering what interest you have in other figures
of the 'Conservative Revolution'?
Richard Leviathan: Ernst Jünger being one. Again, a towering figure
who lived through so many eras: from World War One - The Storm of Steel
- through to the more esoteric novels, and still [maintained] his stance
within Europe even as an old man. I remember reading somewhere that he
had quite a high opinion of Mitterand, but he said in reservation "He's
still a democrat." So [there is] this idea that he carried some sort of
conservative, or rather radical conservative, certainly authoritarian
ethos born of his military prowess. But in World War Two he retained an
element of the outsider again the warrior-poet which cannot acclimatise
itself entirely to a regime, cannot offer itself absolutely and spiritually
to a political order as much as he tried to cultivate one in some of his
writings the idea in his revolutionary writings - The Worker for
example - which had a proto- totalitarian vision.
His actual experience often worked as a rift within his writing. He needed
to move with the rift...A novel like Eumeswil ...where he has this
vision of an autocrat and at the same time an anarch. An anarch is not
an anarchist, but an outsider who is autocratic in his own right but exists
beyond the regime. He is always outside. He always remains a counterpoint
to any monarch. He's always been around and always will be. And thus the
outsider can still in some ways be a conservative but in a radical sense.
FluxEuroap: Like many other Modernists of his time, he seems to have
been associated first with embracing the machine age and later with developing
a more sceptical view of technology. What are your own views of the technological
civilization and its destiny?
Richard Leviathan: I think technology is inevitable. You can't deny it.
It's very temping to cultivate a Luddite perspective but ultimately you
realise this is not possible. Technology is best described as part of
the Faustian spirit of Europe, and beyond the Occident as well with a
country like Japan. It's inevitable and it's creative. It serves as a
fantastic means towards achieving ends, but what happened was that the
means eclipsed the ends. The ends have disappeared because a certain nihilism,
a certain cynicism, scepticism, whatever you want to call it - disaffection,
apathy - and the means have taken over because they have such a materialistic
presence seemingly, whereas ends represent things more like ideals. They
seem superfluous, seemingly unnecessary, particularly in a pragmatic age.
And yet this power of technology is so immanent in the world that you
have to reckon with it. We can't be totally absorbed into it without being
destroyed ourselves. We have to reconsider it as a means towards an end.
But technology isn't in question. We might question the concept of technology
but we can't question its reality.
PERSONAL
FluxEuropa: Do you consider yourself to be an outsider?
Richard Leviathan: Yes, in the sense that my interests or my thinking,
or beyond that, even my view of how I am in the world, tends to be the
vision of an exile to some extent, a self-imposed exile, but I don't want
to portray myself as somebody who can't communicate. Outsiders aren't
always awkward with the world. I think it's possible to be an outsider
and find some kind of belonging as well in the world. Perhaps the goal
is, in a mystical sense, not to reject the world entirely but maybe to
find its centre.
This interview was recorded to minidisk and transcribed. It's been
left in a fairly raw form in order to maintain the live spirit. The text
has been edited for relevance and length. A few editorial interpolations
(in square brackets) have been made to preserve the flow.
LINKS TO SOME OTHER ONLINE INTERVIEWS WITH RICHARD LEVIATHAN
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